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	<title>Comments on: Ninth Circuit: Students May Not Disagree with Gay-Rights Agenda</title>
	<link>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/</link>
	<description>Apologia kai Polemikos</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 06:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Out of the Mainstream</title>
		<link>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1301</link>
		<author>Out of the Mainstream</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1301</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;While I am quoting the opinion, let me add this section:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;â€œA school need not tolerate student speech that is inconsistent with its basic educational mission, [] even though the government could not censor similar speech outside the school.â€ Hazelwood Sch. Dist. v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260, 266 (1988) (citation and internal quotation marks omitted). Part of a schoolâ€™s â€œbasic educational missionâ€ is the inculcation of â€œfundamental values of habits and manners of civility essential to a democratic society.â€ Fraser, 478 U.S. at 681 (internal quotation marks omitted). For this reason, public schools may permit, and even encourage, discussions of tolerance, equality and democracy without being required to provide equal time for student or other speech espousing intolerance, bigotry or hatred.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I am quoting the opinion, let me add this section:</p>

<blockquote>â€œA school need not tolerate student speech that is inconsistent with its basic educational mission, [] even though the government could not censor similar speech outside the school.â€ Hazelwood Sch. Dist. v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260, 266 (1988) (citation and internal quotation marks omitted). Part of a schoolâ€™s â€œbasic educational missionâ€ is the inculcation of â€œfundamental values of habits and manners of civility essential to a democratic society.â€ Fraser, 478 U.S. at 681 (internal quotation marks omitted). For this reason, public schools may permit, and even encourage, discussions of tolerance, equality and democracy without being required to provide equal time for student or other speech espousing intolerance, bigotry or hatred.</blockquote>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Out of the Mainstream</title>
		<link>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1300</link>
		<author>Out of the Mainstream</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1300</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Brian,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thanks for visiting, even if it was only long enough to attribute my hyperbolic rhetoric to someone else. :)  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;However, I have to disagree with the extent to which you believe my hyperbole reached.  If you read the entire opinion (not that I expect you to), you will probably see why I concluded the protester probably wouldn't be allowed to disagree publicly to any degree.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You suggest that he probably would be able to wear a shirt that said "I disagree with the premise behind the Day of Silence." But nothing in the opinion suggests that is the case.  If anything, the opinion suggests he &lt;em&gt;would not&lt;/em&gt; be permitted to wear such a shirt.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;As we have explained, however, although Tinker does not allow schools to restrict the non-invasive, nondisruptive expression of political viewpoints, it does permit school authorities to restrict â€œone particular opinionâ€ if the expression would â€œimpinge upon the rights 37 of other studentsâ€ or substantially disrupt school activities.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That's a mighty big "or" planted right there in the middle of the opinion.  That "or" means there is no "substantial disruption" requirement.  Therefore, the kinder, softer wording you suggested is no different from the wording the protester had on his shirt.  Both represent the same viewpoint - a viewpoint the school believes "impinges on the rights" of other students.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>

<p>Thanks for visiting, even if it was only long enough to attribute my hyperbolic rhetoric to someone else. <img src='http://www.outbursts.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>

<p>However, I have to disagree with the extent to which you believe my hyperbole reached.  If you read the entire opinion (not that I expect you to), you will probably see why I concluded the protester probably wouldn&#8217;t be allowed to disagree publicly to any degree.  </p>

<p>You suggest that he probably would be able to wear a shirt that said &#8220;I disagree with the premise behind the Day of Silence.&#8221; But nothing in the opinion suggests that is the case.  If anything, the opinion suggests he <em>would not</em> be permitted to wear such a shirt.  </p>

<blockquote>As we have explained, however, although Tinker does not allow schools to restrict the non-invasive, nondisruptive expression of political viewpoints, it does permit school authorities to restrict â€œone particular opinionâ€ if the expression would â€œimpinge upon the rights 37 of other studentsâ€ or substantially disrupt school activities.</blockquote>

<p>That&#8217;s a mighty big &#8220;or&#8221; planted right there in the middle of the opinion.  That &#8220;or&#8221; means there is no &#8220;substantial disruption&#8221; requirement.  Therefore, the kinder, softer wording you suggested is no different from the wording the protester had on his shirt.  Both represent the same viewpoint - a viewpoint the school believes &#8220;impinges on the rights&#8221; of other students.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: extremist</title>
		<link>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1297</link>
		<author>extremist</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1297</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Then you should read more often, Brian. :)  Welcome.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As to your points (you may not have noticed, but) I did not draft this particular post.  I'll try to answer in any event.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;True, "may not disagree" is a bit of hyperbole.  I guess the student could technically disagree with the school district about whether homosexuality is shameful, he just isn't allowed to say so.  Freedom of thought is preserved!  Freedom of expression, on the other hand, is not.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;True, it wasn't technically a crime to say the pledge under the Ninth Circuit's ruling.  But, if a school district had defied the ruling, I bet the police would have eventually gotten involved -- as they did in Alabama when the state Supreme Court Chief Justice defied a ruling regarding the display of the Ten Commandments.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;True, heterosexual teens like sex too.  I think OOTM's point was that the heterosexual preferences of most students weren't transformed into a cause that distracted from the core educational mission.  By contrast, all the time and effort that went into the Day of Silence did distract from the core mission in order to benefit a minority of students with different sexual preferences.  I think it's a fair question: shouldn't the school focus on teaching and stay out of the culture wars?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Being a homeschooling parent, though, that question doesn't interest me much.  I concluded a long time ago that the public schools cannot and will not avoid the culture wars (even though they should) -- which is one reason among many that public schools will not be educating my children.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then you should read more often, Brian. <img src='http://www.outbursts.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Welcome.</p>

<p>As to your points (you may not have noticed, but) I did not draft this particular post.  I&#8217;ll try to answer in any event.</p>

<p>True, &#8220;may not disagree&#8221; is a bit of hyperbole.  I guess the student could technically disagree with the school district about whether homosexuality is shameful, he just isn&#8217;t allowed to say so.  Freedom of thought is preserved!  Freedom of expression, on the other hand, is not.</p>

<p>True, it wasn&#8217;t technically a crime to say the pledge under the Ninth Circuit&#8217;s ruling.  But, if a school district had defied the ruling, I bet the police would have eventually gotten involved &#8212; as they did in Alabama when the state Supreme Court Chief Justice defied a ruling regarding the display of the Ten Commandments.</p>

<p>True, heterosexual teens like sex too.  I think OOTM&#8217;s point was that the heterosexual preferences of most students weren&#8217;t transformed into a cause that distracted from the core educational mission.  By contrast, all the time and effort that went into the Day of Silence did distract from the core mission in order to benefit a minority of students with different sexual preferences.  I think it&#8217;s a fair question: shouldn&#8217;t the school focus on teaching and stay out of the culture wars?</p>

<p>Being a homeschooling parent, though, that question doesn&#8217;t interest me much.  I concluded a long time ago that the public schools cannot and will not avoid the culture wars (even though they should) &#8212; which is one reason among many that public schools will not be educating my children.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1284</link>
		<author>Brian</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 04:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1284</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Actually, I take back my first sentence.  I don't read your blog often enough to know whether I disagree with practically every sentence.  :)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I do usually disagree when I see your comments on other blogs, though.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I take back my first sentence.  I don&#8217;t read your blog often enough to know whether I disagree with practically every sentence.  <img src='http://www.outbursts.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>

<p>I do usually disagree when I see your comments on other blogs, though.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1283</link>
		<author>Brian</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 03:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1283</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I usually disagree with practically every sentence you write.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;However, in this instance, I will agree with you that this case was probably decided wrongly.  The kid should have been allowed to wear his stupid shirt.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But I think you've seriously mischaracterized several points in this post.  Maybe you were being hyperbolic for rhetorical effect.  But:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;-Obviously the ruling does not say that this student "may not disagree" with anybody.  If his shirt had simply said, "I disagree with the premise behind the Day of Silence," I doubt there would have been any trouble.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;-The court never made anyone who Pledges Allegiance a "criminal".&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;-Do you really think that it is only gay students who "want to have sex with each other"?
Furthermore, the Day of Silence is not about sex.  At any rate, it's far less about sex than the prom is.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I usually disagree with practically every sentence you write.</p>

<p>However, in this instance, I will agree with you that this case was probably decided wrongly.  The kid should have been allowed to wear his stupid shirt.</p>

<p>But I think you&#8217;ve seriously mischaracterized several points in this post.  Maybe you were being hyperbolic for rhetorical effect.  But:</p>

<p>-Obviously the ruling does not say that this student &#8220;may not disagree&#8221; with anybody.  If his shirt had simply said, &#8220;I disagree with the premise behind the Day of Silence,&#8221; I doubt there would have been any trouble.</p>

<p>-The court never made anyone who Pledges Allegiance a &#8220;criminal&#8221;.</p>

<p>-Do you really think that it is only gay students who &#8220;want to have sex with each other&#8221;?
Furthermore, the Day of Silence is not about sex.  At any rate, it&#8217;s far less about sex than the prom is.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: extremist</title>
		<link>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1254</link>
		<author>extremist</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.outbursts.org/2006/04/22/ninth-circuit-students-may-not-disagree-with-gay-rights-agenda/#comment-1254</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Just imagine what would happen if &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Circuit#Political_liberalism"&gt;the most liberal&lt;/a&gt;, and most reversed, appeals court in the country had faced an identical case with one exception.  What if the student wearing the t-shirt were a member of an Islamist organization dedicated to the violent imposition of &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Illegal_sexual_relations:_Adultery.2C_Fornication_and_Homosexuality"&gt;Sharia law with regard to homosexuals&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think their heads might have exploded from confusion over whether to side with the homosexuals or &lt;a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200312220001.asp"&gt;the terrorists&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just imagine what would happen if <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Circuit#Political_liberalism">the most liberal</a>, and most reversed, appeals court in the country had faced an identical case with one exception.  What if the student wearing the t-shirt were a member of an Islamist organization dedicated to the violent imposition of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Illegal_sexual_relations:_Adultery.2C_Fornication_and_Homosexuality">Sharia law with regard to homosexuals</a>.</p>

<p>I think their heads might have exploded from confusion over whether to side with the homosexuals or <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200312220001.asp">the terrorists</a>.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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